How to handle Paypal dispute - item claimed delivered by DHL

[debs3759]

I find myself in a difficult position with another member here.

An item shipped with other packages I shipped from my collection appears to have gone missing, although DHL tracking says it has been delivered, and they have provided a "Proof Of Delivery", which shows there were two packages, one of which was transferred on to Italy (this is correct, as two packages were shipped on the same paperwork, one being to Italy).

The Agent I used have not given me any useful information, and I cannot contact DHL direct as I took advice from others here to go via an agent. The recipient asked for details to be able to investigate it himself, at the same time telling me it was at the deadline for putting in a DHL claim. I set things up for him to investigate, and thought that was that.

The buyer is not online daily, and has not been in touch every day. I have been online daily, and have done what I was asked when I was asked, including building up huge levels of stress (and phone bill!) trying to deal with this, with no result, largely because I am not allowed to deal direct with DHL, whereas the buyer can.

The buyer has now started a Paypal dispute, with no discussion about who will take responsibility for how much of the cost of the package. I find myself in a position where:

1) I would have been happy to cover 50% of the cost of the package, sharing the cost of DHL screwing up. I only needed a chance to discuss this like adults should be able to.
2) I have now given Paypal details, including the fact that DHL sent me a copy of the "Proof Of Delivery", as well as the tracking number which supposedly proves delivery. The result of this, if the buyer follows it through to it's conclusion, is that one of us will have to pay 100% of the cost, which I think unreasonable. If the buyer decides to be reasonable and accept 50% of the cost, and to settle it that way, I would consider it ended amicably, although we will have both lost.

I would like to know what others would do in this position (as either buyer or seller). Needless to say, if I lose a significant portion of my collection (valued at over €200) and get nothing for it, I will not have confidence to deal with some people again. Likewise, the buyer will be in the same position. Hence my suggestion that we cover 50% each, but it does need the buyer to read messages and understand that I am not at fault, and for him to not say it is my fault to not do things daily when he is not online daily to discuss it!

I hope to be reassured by some replies and that the buyer will be more understanding than he appears to be.

[doccybrown]

50/50 sounds good to me if there`s really no way
to get money back from the insurance.
At the time you gave the parcel to the logistics
company they are responsible for any inadequacies,
means completely stolen parcels, missing contents
and damages. The insurance should pay in
this cases, of course it is a hard way -
some companys or assurances may speculate that
you will never hire a barrister to get your right.
As far I know will PayPal pay not one cent if
you have a valid tracking number with
the status "delivered".

[debs3759]

That's my thought exactly. DHL gave a Proof Of Delivery with a signature, although I do believe the signature does not belong to the buyer. I do not think they will ever accept responsibility, given that they provided the supposed "proof of delivery", so think I am being reasonable to offer a 50% refund.

I have been available to make phone calls and send emails almost every day since shipping packages, despite having wanted to take some time to rest. Neither the buyer nor the shipping agent has been as available as me, so I do not think I should have to accept as much responsibility as I am accepting (ie 50%), and hope the buyer will be reasonable about this. Worst thing is, I had almost finished preparing a document with a list of what had been bought, with links to all the images on my website, when the buyer decided he wanted to be able to take over the investigations. This was on the last day that DHL document as being able to make a claim.

If it goes to the stage of a Paypal claim being made to claim a refund, I will win, as I have a proof of delivery from DHL (whether the signature is genuine or not is irrelevant, it is what DHL provided!). In that case, the buyer will be forced to accept my offer of 50% refund, but he will get it quicker by being reasonable, staying online often enough to resolve this, and accepting the 50%.

[D.8080]

Probably you'd end winning any Paypal dispute.

I was thinking that you should file a claim to DHL, thus initiating something that would buy you time. If that doesn't need to spend money, in order to stop terms for a claim.

[If they have the signature, in Italy it's very common to have someone of the family signing the reciept. Even neighbours. I don't know DHL policy though.] <--- I didn't understand where the parcel was "lost", Italy or other place.
You should ask a copy of the buyer's signature and than compare it to the one stored in DHL papers. If they match don't even bother to settle amicably.
If they don't match than you both have a problem with DHL.

I have the feeling that you are too kind on this. If anything happened with DHL screwing than the other part should move and fast for his package.

I hope that the buyer isn't someone well known here. Really sad.

I don't see you being at fault.

[debs3759]

Part of the problem is that DHL ahve provided a Proof Of Delivery note, with a signature. This signature looks like a mark anyone could have made, so I do believe it not to be the person who they should have been delivered to. It also shows there were two packages, of which 1 (and only one) was forwarded to another destination (Italy).

According to the DHL website, it is not lost, it is delivered. To the destination address. They say the package going to Italy is delayed, but that has been delivered!

It doesn't matter that the signature is not the person I shipped the package to, as it is common for someone else to sign for a package, and anyone (genuine or not) can put a mark and say it is their signature.

Also, I have no right to contact DHL and deal with this, as it was booked through a third party. The buyer asked me to let him investigate this, when I had almost finished preparing paperwork to send to the shipping agent. As a result, the claim I was hoping to get started can no longer happen, and the buyer has not told me whether he got in touch with the egancy to do anything, he simply waited a few days and then started a claim without saying anything.

Yes, he is well known here. I will not name him (or what country...) as I still hope he will be reasonable and accept my offer of a 50% refund. If he manages to successfully make a claim against DHL, then good luck to him. If he makes a successful claim against me, which I very much doubt, then I will name him very publicly, as I know I am not at fault and I am offering to accept 50% of any loss.

[debs3759]

I have just removed the colouring that indicated which DHL packages have been delivered in my sale forum, in order not to embarrass or offend the buyer. By doing that, nobody can check what has been delivered and then name the person concerned.

My intention (I am sure for most of you this does not need saying) is merely to be sure that my decision to offer a 50% refund is reasonable, and to be sure the buyer knows I am trying to be reasonable.

[Windmiller]

I think the buyer is very lucky to be offered 50% considering the circumstances

[vintchip]

[debs3759]

Sadly, as the package was large enough to need to go by DHL, and a vocal minority kept looking for ways to save money, European packages went by the cheapest DHL method, instead of the more secure route which would have cost about €20 more for everyone and caused far more complaints. As such, there is no stated insurance, and the only claim could be for a lost package, for which DHL would have to accept responsibility. I am waiting to hear if the buyer actually contacted the shipping agent after telling me he wanted to do the investigating.

[Wizzard1]

50% is fair, if the customer bought insurance, it's really customer's 100% responsibility to dig into DHL for the refund, thats why they make it so you cant. Paypal would agree.

[debs3759]

5 days with no contact, then the buyer contacts the shipping agent, comes here and makes several purchases, but still refuses to discuss the 50% refund (or anything else!!!) with me!

TO THE BUYER

Think of it this way:

Day 1: I see the package arrived
Day 5: you say it has not arrived
Day 6: I contact the agent, get a reply, contact you
Day 6: You reply, I contact agent again, they reply again
Day 6: I reply again to you
Day 7: You finally send second reply
Day 7: I contact agent again, they reply, I reply to you
Day 12: You reply

Those times are not accurate, but they do roughly represent the amount of contact you had in general while I tried to deal with this. I cannot be held responsible for missing the deadline for a claim with DHL if you are not available to discuss how you want it handled!

Also note that the agent were given a full list of your purchase, and the costs involved, on what I believe to be the last day that a claim could be made, and you were given the information necessary to contact them directly, at your request.

This information is being posted publicly to protect myself, so when you try to make a claim against me with Paypal, I can protect myself by showing them everything I have posted about this, and they will have copies of all PMs and emails that have been sent to or from me regarding this.

I am not going to have someone accuse me of not doing my best to sort out a dispute, and I am not going to allow anyone to walk all over me and rob me of anything, including my right to a fair discussion of who might be responsible.

[el_gecko]

Debs,

IMHO you seem to had make a good empaty work when summarizing the situation for both side. If the parcel had been lost, it would be a different case. But you have the proof that the parcel was delivered, isn't it? It should be to the buyer to grumble to DHL because someone imitated his signature and/or didn't notice that there was a missing package. A 50/50 was very fairplay in these condition, he refused, now let him complain with his missing parcel and keep your money, then wait and see.

(hope my frenchy-english is understandable lol)

[JAC]

50/50 crap.. you pay for DHL, you should get online tracking. If you went through some crappy agent like parcel2go.com then you took a risk and this was the result. If you went direct through DHL, then I'd say its not your problem debs.

The problem with that parcel to windmiller, signed for by a different person.. not your problem debs.

[JAC]

post who it was as well, maybe other members on this forum have had problems with this person

[debs3759]

MIXEUR, the buyer, has now been in touch with the shipping agent (yesterday), made a moderate purchase yesterday, but not contacted me. As such I have no problem now about naming him.

Everyone acknowledges that I did all I can to sort this out. The agency have said that as far as they are concerned I could not have done anything differently, other than use a more expensive method of shipping which would have been fully insured but cost at least £20 more, for a buyer who was already upset about how much shipping was going to cost.

The agents have agreed that if the Paypal dispute is escalated to a claim, they will say all they can to defend me, giving evidence that I have done all I am able at every step of this. They also say that Mixeur was implying that I have not done my best and that I am at fault, and they said to me that they believe the fault only lies with DHL.

I can't say more for now as that would only lead to my getting more stressed.

Attached is what DHL provided as a supposed proof of delivery, proving that I could not have done any more than I have. It appears to be lost somewhere, whether it is with Mixeur's neighbour or in another country I have no control over, as I am not a miracle worker...