Fake 'vintage' chips : We need to speak about that.

[xsecret]

Sure, but the question is :

- How can you guarantee the authenticity ?
- What is the difference between a C4004 and a C4004 ES....

[gmphillips3]

No C4004 ES chips are known to exist. If one did show up it would be a fake because the 'ES' designation was not in use at the time the 4004 was introduced.

I'm actually more concerned about this open thread than I am about the Chinese making fake chips. If the notion does occur to someone to
try and fake or "doctor" a chip, the first thing they are going to do is a google search for 'C4004' and 'fake' to see if it's been done and what gave away the fake so they can make a better fake.

The thread should be deleted and discussions about this should be restricted to a private forum open by invitation only.

[xsecret]

[gshv]

[metalmaker]

The Mad wrote:

And what about this chip :
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=51055&item=5146553598

gmphillips, you came close to winning this auction. Would you bid on this auction again if it came up today after the discussion on this board?

In regard to this thread giving information to forgers - The forgers already know what to do. This thread is educating the collectors and the unknowing second hand sellers.

Metalmaker

[metalmaker]

Any opinions on the legitimacy of this chip?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=1247&item=5150068956&rd=1#ebayphotohosting

"ultra rare" $700+ bucks!

Metalmaker

[xsecret]

I never understand why the chip sold for $500 or more are always with bad quality photo, not clear at all...

[gmphillips3]

I have purchased other chips from this seller without any problems. So yes, I would bid the same amount on that C4004 w/gray traces.

I already have that chip, but the part number on the one on EBAY is a little more boldly printed and I'm always looking for better examples
of the chips in my collection.

I don't think fake chips are a real problem and I doubt they will be given the extremely small number of collectors. It's just to easy to flood the market.

[gshv]

[Riviera]

Don't really think fake old chips is a problem for the moment but may be in the future. The market is simply to small and the number of sellers are limited and fake sellers will be easely recognized.
One easy thing is to save all receipt from where the chip is bought (I do that) to be sure that nobody can accuse you to forge chips.
But as for coins and stamps, if your not in the business you can easely be fooled to buy a fake.

If you want to have your chip tested for functionallity I will be glad to help, free of charge. I have the possibility to test 4004,4040 and 8080 chips and many of their support chips. Testing is always done with zero force adaptors. I'm working on a prototype for testing the 8008 as well.

[CPUShack]

[gshv]

[CPUShack]

Now a FPGA, that emulates a C4004, in white ceramic, THAT would be something.

Yes, it can be done. But it wouldn't be cheap.

You coould probably just as well make NEW C4004s for that price.

The die is very simple, and fairly well known.

[Minuteman]

lol, that's very true

[gmphillips3]

I'm not so much worried about someone finding out how to fake a chip, as
what this thread discloses to a potential chip forger.

For example, how would the forger "know" that the chips being purchased
on EBAY for $500+ are even being purchased by collectors as opposed to vintage computer enthusiasts unless they were a chip collector themselves?

Comments in this thread about "most" of the chips being sold on EBAY bringing high bids being sold to "collectors" that "rarely test" the chips make me cringe. Someone thinking about faking a chip would have no way of knowing this unless they were a chip collector. Even most distributors don't have a clue as to the percentage of chips being sold to collectors verses vintage computer enthusiasts. There's only a few possible sources that someone thinking about faking vintage chips would have to find out this kind of information and that's the few chip collecting forums like this one and grandpa's.

But now, all of this is easy to find out because it's all going to show up to anyone who does a google search on C4004 and fake.

I know that others may not agree, but I still think this thread should be killed and conversations about faking chips should be kept "behind closed doors" and out of open threads like this one.