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CPUShack
Joined: 16 Jun 2003
Posts: 34259
Location: State of Jefferson, USA
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beefy
Joined: 09 Dec 2010
Posts: 7
Location: NT
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Barren Realms 007
Joined: 09 Apr 2010
Posts: 474
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 Posted: Mon Dec 13, 2010 9:53 pm Post subject: |
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| JAC wrote: | | Barren Realms 007 wrote: | | I hold a master electrical liscense and have worked in the industry for 30-35 years, you are 100% correct in your statement. If you go with batteries it would be best to use marine type deep cycle they are desighned for uses like this. And don't leave the battery on a concrete floor, it will ruin the battery. |
sigh.
Merry xmas everyone. |
What did I do to deserve this?
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JAC
Joined: 24 Jul 2005
Posts: 3469
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| Posted: Tue Dec 14, 2010 12:28 pm Post subject: |
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| Barren Realms 007 wrote: | | JAC wrote: | | Barren Realms 007 wrote: | | I hold a master electrical liscense and have worked in the industry for 30-35 years, you are 100% correct in your statement. If you go with batteries it would be best to use marine type deep cycle they are desighned for uses like this. And don't leave the battery on a concrete floor, it will ruin the battery. |
sigh.
Merry xmas everyone. |
What did I do to deserve this? |
I was going to leave you in your ignorance, but seeing as you asked.
To achive any sort of usable runtime for a small UPS, almost any decently sized lead acid will work. Ya ok, deep discharge marine sounds great, but in reality at the loads we are talking about, it isnt really needed. 20-30Amps is nothing to a 50Ah+ lead acid, you dont need the thicker plates in the cells.
Your other comment about the floor has been answered, but I took the time to google for myself and found this:
http://www.thebatteryterminal.com/TechTalk_Batteries_on_Concrete.htm
I learned something. Have you? |
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Barren Realms 007
Joined: 09 Apr 2010
Posts: 474
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| Posted: Tue Dec 14, 2010 3:19 pm Post subject: |
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| JAC wrote: | | Barren Realms 007 wrote: | | JAC wrote: | | Barren Realms 007 wrote: | | I hold a master electrical liscense and have worked in the industry for 30-35 years, you are 100% correct in your statement. If you go with batteries it would be best to use marine type deep cycle they are desighned for uses like this. And don't leave the battery on a concrete floor, it will ruin the battery. |
sigh.
Merry xmas everyone. |
What did I do to deserve this? |
I was going to leave you in your ignorance, but seeing as you asked.
To achive any sort of usable runtime for a small UPS, almost any decently sized lead acid will work. Ya ok, deep discharge marine sounds great, but in reality at the loads we are talking about, it isnt really needed. 20-30Amps is nothing to a 50Ah+ lead acid, you dont need the thicker plates in the cells.
Your other comment about the floor has been answered, but I took the time to google for myself and found this:
http://www.thebatteryterminal.com/TechTalk_Batteries_on_Concrete.htm
I learned something. Have you? |
I am not sure what I have done to ruffle your feathers or if you are just rude to everyone. I did not think that you were that type of person from your past post's, although I have not read all of your post's so maybe you are that type of person. Although I would hate to think of you that way since you contribute so much to this forum and have for so long. I would think that you would show more leadership rather than just calling someone that you have little knowledge about ignorant. If you are going to call someone ignorant I would suggest they are in that frame of mind before doing so. If you are going to call someone ignorant make shure you know something about them to back your statement up.
Now I don't like tooting my own horn but you have brought this out by calling me ignorant so here is a little bit about myself and then if you want to you can call me ignorant.
I held the position of life in scouting by the age of 16.
A member of the Order of the Arrow.
Scout cam counselor for 3 years.
By the 9th grade I was able to install and service HVAC equipment and electrical systems.
I was bilingual in high school because I fortunate to live outside of the US.
I was Brigade CSM in ROTC in High school in a 3 year program.
I was offered scholorships to West Point or Annapolis at my choosing, but I declined both.
I co owned and helped manage an automotive repair shop for 2 years.
I managed all aspects of a complete confinement 125 sow hog operation from farrow to finish for 4 years mostly by myself, and helped row crop 2,500 acres.
I have helped build 3 companies for indivduals to success.
I could have calssified a plant millwrite, but declined the opportunity.
I could have been certified in welding, but declined the opportunity.
I held a journeymans liscense in Plumbing, Electrical & HVAC by the age of 28 and a masters liscense in all 3 fields by the age of 33. I would also hold one in pools and spas if they gave one.
I have owned and ran my own construction company for close to 15 years, performing commercial, residential & industrial services. Engineers usually changed what I suggested on job's unless they are too bull headed. I had around 15 emplayees with 6 service vehicles till I decided to downsize because of what the future looked like in the industry. That classified my in the top 5% of similar companies acording to a survey I once read. I have been a member of the BBB for 5 years with 1 settled complaint and hold the highest possible ranking with them. This was accomplished with no advertising but by work of mouth of quality work covering most of Eastern part of my state
Now if I am ignorant GOD help the rest of the world.
Now I made my original statement because of experience and past knowledge about batteries. I have not kept up with what the current technology offers or the changes that have taken place with materials in the field of batteries. So yes sir I did learn something from the link you posted. And then made a call to a friend that called a battery manufacturer to confirm that this was correct, and it is. I didn't go to the internet to find some bozo making a statement. You can probably find some one on the internet that says cows can fly.
| Quote: | | To achive any sort of usable runtime for a small UPS, almost any decently sized lead acid will work. Ya ok, deep discharge marine sounds great, but in reality at the loads we are talking about, it isnt really needed. 20-30Amps is nothing to a 50Ah+ lead acid, you dont need the thicker plates in the cells. |
Now you are some what correct in your statement above about 20-30 AMP's not being much of a load on a battery. But you put a 20-30 AMP load on a regular 110V house circuit and you have problems. I am not going to explain this to you you can go on the interenet and find out why. Do you even know what the AMP load is from a normal computer tower excluding the monitor without looking at the name plate? I doubt it or you would see that your statement is far fetched and way over blown. And I would also suggest you go do some research on the type of batteries used in application's of this type for UPS systems, or solar/generator systems for storing power and see what type is recomended. And I think I am correct that batteries are not used in a normal residential UPS system, I think I am correct that capacitors are used for this purpose. And if you decide to do this research, if you would please report back on the forum what you find if you have the integrity to back up your statement. And then see if you want to continue to call me ignorant or backtrack and apologize for your rudeness.
I want to apologize forum members for the way this thread has been interupted. For those of you that have delt with me and talked with me on a regular basis know I don't try to come across this way. But you call me names or insult me and I will back up what I say to the best of my ablitiy.
Now Jac, this is the last I will comment on this because I am not going to get into an open argument on the forum with you because all it does is make us both look like an ASS and accomlishes nothing. I still have respect for you and what you do for the forum and I would appreciate the same from you.
This is the last I will comment on this.
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JAC
Joined: 24 Jul 2005
Posts: 3469
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| Posted: Tue Dec 14, 2010 4:30 pm Post subject: |
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Ya, you are some old dude who thinks they know more than they really do. Dont beat yourself up about that. I am the same most of the time. Unlike yourself however, I dont need to validate my qualifications or experience - consider for a second I have more than you think I do 
I also have nothing to apologise for. You were clearly ignorant in your earlier posts and you continue to display a lack of understanding in what I was talking about.
| Barren Realms 007 wrote: | Now you are some what correct in your statement above about 20-30 AMP's not being much of a load on a battery. But you put a 20-30 AMP load on a regular 110V house circuit and you have problems. I am not going to explain this to you you can go on the interenet and find out why. Do you even know what the AMP load is from a normal computer tower excluding the monitor without looking at the name plate? I doubt it or you would see that your statement is far fetched and way over blown. And I would also suggest you go do some research on the type of batteries used in application's of this type for UPS systems, or solar/generator systems for storing power and see what type is recomended. And I think I am correct that batteries are not used in a normal residential UPS system, I think I am correct that capacitors are used for this purpose. And if you decide to do this research, if you would please report back on the forum what you find if you have the integrity to back up your statement. And then see if you want to continue to call me ignorant or backtrack and apologize for your rudeness.
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In real simple terms here is what I was talking about:
Using a 300W inverter as an example, the load on a 12V battery will be 25Amps.. let me also state the obvious that I have assumed 100% efficiency ( doesnt exist) and I picked a ballpark load - infact the exact load doesnt matter -I was trying to illustrate a point. For completion, the net current drawn on the output of this perfect inverter at 110V will be just under 3Amps.
.. and yes, without looking anywhere I can tell you that is enough power an average computer AND monitor (LCD or CRT)
Do I really need to continue.. sigh.. ok.. now back to the context of using YOUR CAR to power that inverter.. blah blah blah.. go read ALL my earlier posts, including the bits where almost any lead acid of reasonable Ah capacity WILL BE GOOD ENOUGH to power a small inverter.
Oh 20-30Amps on a 110V AC circut, incidentally, is not that big a deal. In the UK we can easily load up a ring main with several kW all day long, and much more for brief periods when diversity is taken into account. This however has nothing to do what I was talking about.
| Barren Realms 007 wrote: |
This is the last I will comment on this.
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I doubt that very much. |
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D.8080
Joined: 03 Apr 2006
Posts: 1474
Location: Italy
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| Posted: Tue Dec 14, 2010 6:50 pm Post subject: |
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| jrmunro wrote: | I`m starting to feel the love here and can`t take any more of it.  |
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zLGWyfGk_LU
Serves you well, you little rascal!
With love |
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metalmaker
Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Posts: 161
Location: St. Louis, MO, USA
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| Posted: Wed Dec 15, 2010 2:21 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | Interesting you mention power, like you know what you are talking about, then you go on to suggest running an inverter off you car battery.
First off, the cigarette lighter is a joke. Maybe you can get 100W out of it before the thing melts off your dash and ends up into the footwell. No doubt there are cars out there with high power 12V sockets, but damn.. use them to charge your phone or satnav, not for running a lead to your UPS.
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JAC - They make inverters that go across the vehicle battery terminals - while the vehicle is running - the power is coming from the car charging system - not the battery. It is not connected through the car lighter circuit.
You might want to check you facts before presenting yourself as knowing better.
Look at this one:
http://cgi.ebay.com/1000W-Watt-12V-220V-Portable-Power-Inverter-Boat-Solar-/250501878598?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3a53135346
The same type of thing is availbale for 120 volt if that is what is needed.
I think a 1000 watts will run his PC.
You should not be so quick to throw stones
MM
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max3
Joined: 20 Feb 2010
Posts: 430
Location: DREAM LAND
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| Posted: Wed Dec 15, 2010 2:22 pm Post subject: |
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2 ALL:
PLEASE, BACK TO THE TOPIC.
2 MODS:
Please remove any following, non initial topic related posts.
I really appreciate everyone contribution to the my question, differrent opinions are much welcome, but the rest is just mixing water in the glass with fork... so please lets get back to the SUBJECT (if you have something to add of course) so far most of my concerns are cleared up.
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metalmaker
Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Posts: 161
Location: St. Louis, MO, USA
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CPUShack
Joined: 16 Jun 2003
Posts: 34259
Location: State of Jefferson, USA
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| Posted: Wed Dec 15, 2010 2:55 pm Post subject: |
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| metalmaker wrote: | For a 1000 Watt continious load the vehicle alternator may need to upgraded, but still probably cheaper than a seperate fuel fired generator.
A "standard" vehicle alternator can generate 60 to 95 amps depending on the vehicle. 60 amps x 12 volts = 750 watts (still need a safety factor). Still enough to power most PCs.
MM |
Closer to half that when efficiency (or lack their of) is taken into account.
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metalmaker
Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Posts: 161
Location: St. Louis, MO, USA
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| Posted: Wed Dec 15, 2010 3:08 pm Post subject: |
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CPUShack - My impression is you probably know more about cars than me, but I believe the rated amps of the alternator is the amperage actually delivered to the battery terminals?
A similar inverter to the one I previously posted has an 85% efficiency.
http://www.globalsources.com/gsol/I/Car-power/a/9000000105156.htm
MM
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CPUShack
Joined: 16 Jun 2003
Posts: 34259
Location: State of Jefferson, USA
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| Posted: Wed Dec 15, 2010 3:22 pm Post subject: |
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| metalmaker wrote: | CPUShack - My impression is you probably know more about cars than me, but I believe the rated amps of the alternator is the amperage actually delivered to the battery terminals?
A similar inverter to the one I previously posted has an 85% efficiency.
http://www.globalsources.com/gsol/I/Car-power/a/9000000105156.htm
MM |
Battery charging circuit is a bit different, alternator is not wired to provide direct max amperage to the battery, it goes through the voltage regulator etc, ya will end up with about 80-90% available.
So with those losses, the 15% loss in the Inverter, you end up needing a lot more.
Modern cars often have a 150-200amp alternator, however, much of that power is used for engine management stuff and accessories (electric fans, now electric power steering, fuel pump, etc.
Gone are the days of engines that only needed gas and a coil lol
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CPUShack
Joined: 16 Jun 2003
Posts: 34259
Location: State of Jefferson, USA
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| Posted: Wed Dec 15, 2010 3:31 pm Post subject: |
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All that being said, the 2 best options are:
Laptop (if the power doesnt go off for more then an hour or so)
UPS backed by generator.
There are some nice, fairly quiet models in the 1-2kw range that would work fine. Run through the UPS to deal with any odd voltage sags etc (Some UPSs and even generators have line conditioners even)
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JAC
Joined: 24 Jul 2005
Posts: 3469
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| Posted: Wed Dec 15, 2010 5:45 pm Post subject: |
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Can't accept that I called you out for that stupid idea of hooking up an inverter and trailing the lead into the house huh?
| metalmaker wrote: | | Quote: | Interesting you mention power, like you know what you are talking about, then you go on to suggest running an inverter off you car battery.
First off, the cigarette lighter is a joke. Maybe you can get 100W out of it before the thing melts off your dash and ends up into the footwell. No doubt there are cars out there with high power 12V sockets, but damn.. use them to charge your phone or satnav, not for running a lead to your UPS.
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JAC - They make inverters that go across the vehicle battery terminals - while the vehicle is running - the power is coming from the car charging system - not the battery. It is not connected through the car lighter circuit.
You might want to check you facts before presenting yourself as knowing better.
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I do know better.
You carefully snipped the part in my post where I mention connecting across the battery terminals for greater current.. now who wants to jack their bonnet to do that?? Stupid. Leaving the car running for hours.. stupid.
| metalmaker wrote: |
I think a 1000 watts will run his PC.
You should not be so quick to throw stones
MM |
STONES???? wtf..
dont confuse FACTS and frank DISCUSSION with throwing stones. I call it as I see it, and straight talking is what you get from me. If you want someone to hold your hand and pat your head while explaining why you are talking out of your ass then I am not that guy.
Now.. 1000W ... damn.. thats a lot of power, I think you have no clue what you are talking about. ... no I dont think, I know you have no clue, you have clearly demonstrated that.
Where do you get 1000W from?
My i5 laptop consumes 100W max. - full performance.
My 24" monitor consumes 150W max.
My quad core desktop consumes 300W max doing stuff like intensive HD access and disc burning.
An average computer setup will need no more than 200-300W.
Last edited by JAC on Wed Dec 15, 2010 6:15 pm; edited 6 times in total |
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