!!Some bad news for some collectors. I solved a mystery. !!!

naked1300 · Joined: 26 Jul 2007 Posts: 837 Location: Austria,

Hi to all,

something I have to share with you:

following happened:

I received 5 pcs. 1NS4004D for my collection because this 4004 type from
National Semiconductor with the 1 on the beginning instead of I I was still
missing.
I was really glad to get them, and I am sure, everyone who has this
chip thinks it is an 4004 CPU.
So I wanted to test them in my Obtronix Nibbler but noone of the CPU'S
was working. Hmm, strange. From my point of view can this not be
possible. ( I still had a bad feeling in my stomach)
So I decided to open one of these glory chips.
and...
no cpu, no NS die, inside something strange from MOSTEK, marked 4096.

from my point of view there are 2 possibillities:

* 1NS4004D is no cpu because of the 1 at the beginning instead of the I

* this 1NS4004D is a faked and the faker did the mistake with the 1 instead of the I

anyway what was the case, every collector who has this cpu and maybe
payed a lot of money for it can now throw it away.
Sorry for that, but I always want to know the truth.

here some pictures:

Riviera · Joined: 03 Feb 2003 Posts: 159 Location: Sweden

Thats very sad news but good to finally find out the truth.
This means I have to scrap my chips as well. Sad

Reminds me to always be very suspicious on markings that looks different. Confused

Marcin · Joined: 02 Jan 2005 Posts: 8519 Location: Poland

To be honest first time I see 1NS400D. All what I saw to this moment were normal INS4004 so you had bad luck.

Thanks for your post.

magictom · Joined: 14 May 2009 Posts: 2281 Location: Hawaii

I'd vote for option 2 (faker making a mistake), for several reasons:

* MK4096 is a 4K DRAM ... why would NS put a 4K Mostek RAM chip into one of their packages, and put a label on it that happens to look like their INS4004.
* Also, from what I can see, NS RAM chips have a "MM" prefix, not "1NS..."
* I've never seen an NS chip/IC that starts with a number

susl45 · Joined: 27 Dec 2007 Posts: 3179 Location: CHU

Also bad news for me as I just trade one...

But thanks for share the truth.

debs3759 · Posted: Thu Nov 17, 2011 10:09 pm Post subject:

It's not the first time I've seen parts that have either 1 where there should be I or I where there should be 1. I always thought of them as poor quality fakes, but I actually now think they are raelly good fakes.

By that, I mean if someone has a pile of pretty but worthless chips, and they know they can just change the marking to make them look like a rare variant of another chip, and they also know that by changing the part number slightly to be a chip that was never really produced, they can sell them to people who think they are something they are not without actually having to say they are what they appear to be : Smile

And if you followed that long sentence and understood it first time you read it, you're as crazy as me!

magictom · Joined: 14 May 2009 Posts: 2281 Location: Hawaii

Borris70 · Joined: 24 Apr 2003 Posts: 988 Location: Germany

Bad news i also own one 1NS4004

it seems that all faked 1NS4004 chips in our collection have timestamp 835 on top

but thanks for the truth

Borris70 · Joined: 24 Apr 2003 Posts: 988 Location: Germany

I took a look in my old mails.

i traded this chip 8 years ago from another member of this forum. so this is a very old fake chip

without offending this member: it would be nice to know what was the original source of these chips

kosmokrator · Joined: 03 Jul 2008 Posts: 4085 Location: Athens-GR

ohh... i imagine all of your disapointment.....
imo .....this is easy to suspect for fake's ....
the print are too bold not line-order...
the national semi logo looks good...but....good work done ...its just remarked mostek Ram..\
I hope u dont give All of your Salary for this ... Sad

and before Scrap All of u Owners of this chip.....open it to see if is ram chip inside.....
I think if a 4004 chip die inside .the disapointment willbe double/twice Razz

doccybrown · Joined: 03 Oct 2005 Posts: 1736 Location: Germany

Holy crap, really a black day for collectors today Sad

Thanks for the informations Peter!
The logo on the faked chips looks good at the first view,
the fakers obviously used the old original National
logo from around the 80ies. But it looks like that
the logo on all genuine National-chips of that time look
a bit different, please see below what I mean!

chip68 · Posted: Fri Nov 18, 2011 10:17 pm Post subject:

Another telltale sign: It's missing a ground strap. Wink

Purple INS4004D's always have one.

- CMW

kosmokrator · Joined: 03 Jul 2008 Posts: 4085 Location: Athens-GR

very Nice Observation About Logo Doccy Smile

......
Thnx

doccybrown · Joined: 03 Oct 2005 Posts: 1736 Location: Germany

Chiefish · Posted: Sat Nov 19, 2011 4:10 pm Post subject:

The ground strap issue is the easiest and quickest way to tell from what i see.
Straight up...... no ground strap no 4004 that simple. Very Happy

thanks for pointing that out Chip

Theres also a cpuple of these posted over at ChipDb, they should probly be marked as fakes now.

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