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crazybubba64
Joined: 03 Jul 2018
Posts: 1371
Location: WI, USA
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 Posted: Fri Jun 21, 2019 9:19 pm Post subject: Ultrasonic cleaners? |
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I think we all have a couple of processors sitting in a box somewhere with some sort of stubborn thermal compound or mystery dirt stuck on it.
Has anyone tried running older ceramic (Or I guess ANY) processor through an ultrasonic cleaner? I know they can work wonders for cleaning PCBs, but I don't think I've seen anyone use them for processors.
Anyone here have any experience using one?
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debs3759
Joined: 18 Jan 2006
Posts: 9477
Location: Northampton, Divided Kingdom
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| Posted: Fri Jun 21, 2019 9:24 pm Post subject: |
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I don't think I would risk damaging the fine wires and circuitry in a CPU. Vibrations strong enough to remove epoxy would thrash any fine wires.
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stevejam
Joined: 30 Dec 2017
Posts: 803
Location: Metaluna aka Bellevue WA
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| Posted: Sat Jun 22, 2019 6:09 pm Post subject: |
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| I've run PDIP's through an Ultrasonic cleaner to clean up the pins. It sort of works - the water is dirty and has bits in it after the clean - but it really doesn't make that much difference so I gave up. My Ultrasonic cleaner is very low-end though, probably not very powerful. And also I haven't checked these chips afterwards to make sure they still work. |
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xsecret
Joined: 01 Feb 2004
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Location: France
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crazybubba64
Joined: 03 Jul 2018
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Location: WI, USA
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| Posted: Mon Jun 24, 2019 8:04 am Post subject: |
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| xsecret wrote: | | Never use ultrasonic cleaner. They will wipe nearly all prints (espcially AMD/Cyrix), weaken the pins on PGA and broke wire-bonds inside old ICs. That's hell. |
This is precisely the information I was looking for. Thanks!
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MEX68KECB
Joined: 28 May 2018
Posts: 157
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| Posted: Fri May 06, 2022 7:55 pm Post subject: |
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Okay I have to resurrect this (I had also asked this question.) If ultrasonic cleaners are damaging chips, how are guys like Louis Rossman:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OjUKFg7AGmQ
And this guy in Australia:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RLgFSdSDE-8
Successfully using ultrasonic cleaners? I've done some soldering and am about to get into SMD components and it sure would be nice to clean the flux residue off with one. I also have some QFP Coldfires that have adhesive residue on them. I may sacrifice one for the cause.
I was hoping we could talk more about this! Maybe a certain wattage per liter is safe? |
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shrad
Joined: 16 Sep 2020
Posts: 73
Location: Belgium
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| Posted: Sun May 08, 2022 12:28 pm Post subject: |
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Isopropyl alcohol is the way to go, with careful test first to see if printing is not going out... with a cotton stick and careful gentle handling...
If you have oxidizing on the pins, I would just use a cotton stick with a bit of vinegar to see if it does good, as you can always gently rinse it without it being too hard |
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jamman83
Joined: 11 May 2022
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| Posted: Wed May 11, 2022 3:20 pm Post subject: |
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| xsecret wrote: | | Never use ultrasonic cleaner. They will wipe nearly all prints (espcially AMD/Cyrix), weaken the pins on PGA and broke wire-bonds inside old ICs. That's hell. |
I wouldn't say never. Working on industrial electronics for 3 years myself and knowing my boss has been using an ultrasonic cleaner and convection oven for electrical equipment (some designed by us, some by others) for over 50 years, I don't know where people keep getting the notion that ultrasonic cleaners are "bad for electronics." I can't speak specifically for desktop CPU's (thinks like Ryzen's or i7's) but I've put plenty of microprocessors in the cleaner and came out perfectly fine, sometimes it even fixes something (we only try to clean it if there's something wrong most of the time.) Just last weekend I threw my RAM and Nvidia RTX 2070 in the cleaner in desperation to try and fix my random PC crashes (turns out it was a bios problem, not hardware [I hope, I reset to default bios and I've been running steady for 3 days now]). I can confidently say that I've never taken a working piece, put it in the cleaner and had it come out not working. The only worry I would have is with weakening thermal compound, which so far hasn't been a problem as far as I can tell on my GPU/ram which both have heatsinks and (therefore, I assume) thermal compound.
Sometimes we have PCB's or IC's or combinations that aren't working and we put them in the cleaner for ~10 min and bake them for ~20 min and they come out working properly. It does wonders for cheaply manufactured boards, particularly the baking.
The only thing I can think that we do differently which for some reason doesn't seem to be common knowledge is replace soap/water with denatured alcohol (90% IPA may work but I've never tried it). Stuff you can get usually get for camp stoves (we use Sunny brand). It's expensive but it dries with 1 hr room temperature or a few minutes at 170 F.
Only other thing I can think of is people getting poor quality cleaners. THERE IS NO WAY A ULTRASONIC CLEANER SHOULD LOOSEN PINS OR WIRE-BONDS, IT SIMPLY DOESN"T WORK LIKE THAT. There are miniscule vibrations hitting your electronic piece for a short amount of time, if the piece breaks due to that it was already on the verge of collapse. The operant method of cleaning is simply due to warm air bubbles gently flowing through the die of your electronics. |
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MEX68KECB
Joined: 28 May 2018
Posts: 157
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| Posted: Sat May 14, 2022 1:40 pm Post subject: |
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| Thanks for the input jamman83, I think I am going to experiment this week. |
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debs3759
Joined: 18 Jan 2006
Posts: 9477
Location: Northampton, Divided Kingdom
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| Posted: Sat May 14, 2022 2:04 pm Post subject: |
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| CoalCreekPlastics wrote: | | Thanks for the input jamman83, I think I am going to experiment this week. |
LOL. one person says it's OK, so you think that is better advice than others saying it's not. You were going to do it anyway.
The vibrations from an ultrasonic cleaner move the wire bond hundreds of times farther than their thickness, tens of thousands of times a second. Of course it's a bad idea. Simple physics should tell you that!
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My graphics card database can be found at http://www.gpuzoo.com.
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MEX68KECB
Joined: 28 May 2018
Posts: 157
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| Posted: Sun May 15, 2022 11:02 am Post subject: |
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| debs3759 wrote: | | CoalCreekPlastics wrote: | | Thanks for the input jamman83, I think I am going to experiment this week. |
LOL. one person says it's OK, so you think that is better advice than others saying it's not. You were going to do it anyway.
The vibrations from an ultrasonic cleaner move the wire bond hundreds of times farther than their thickness, tens of thousands of times a second. Of course it's a bad idea. Simple physics should tell you that! |
That just doesn't make any sense. The operating action is cavitation, not vibration. This is common knowledge if you have done even the most basic research into ultrasonic cleaning.
I'm going to try some things because the professionals use ultrasonic cleaning, Your comment and tone...well, let's just say I wish it had been something constructive. |
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Cwm9
Joined: 21 Aug 2022
Posts: 1
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| Posted: Sun Aug 21, 2022 12:15 am Post subject: |
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Like most things the truth is more complicated than yes/no.
Short low energy high frequency baths with sweep functions are fine.
Long, low frequency, or high power constant energy baths will probably kill your CPU.
If a wire bond ends up in a wave node it can cause damage. Sympathetic vibration can cause damage. High amplitude can cause damage.
It's unlikely your home bath meets the requirements.
This is not a new topic.
See
https://www.circuitnet.com/experts/60108.html |
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