Fake 'vintage' chips : We need to speak about that.

[xsecret]

Well, we really need to speak about fake markings on chips.

I recently received informations about this. Some guys (I will not disclore who, because i'm not sure) knows very well that collectors can spend INCREDIBLE money for an old chip with xxx or yyy markings. My friend (living in china) knows some guys that said "You want some C4004 ES ? No problem, for 50USD, I will make one for you. Just resell it on eBay and you will be able to sell it for $400+".

He said there is lots of chips currently on ebay (especially old and expensible Intel "gold w/ white ceramic" chip) that are fake, come from China and were re-sold by US seller.

So, I asked two friend working at Intel for years. They both don't remember about the 4004 ES, even in their internal museum. That's strange, isn't it ?

About making 'old' chips from China. My friend have some other price. For a big quantity, a fake "Intel Cxxxx" with "any marking you want" price is between $3 and $50 (depending if you are chinese or not ), minimum quantity : 20. For a classic PGA (I sent him the picture of the Eagle Memory 486), that's not a problem, the price is $4 for a minimum quantity of 100. They use the same technique than for writing the "Merry Christmas" Chip :



Of course, the chips are not functionnal, but who cares about this ? The "oldish" look is easy to simulate, he said.

That's what I heard and this business is growing day by day (The More collectors will spend money on chip, the more it will grown).

PS : To be really honnest with you, I asked my friend to buy one 'fake' chip for me (An Intel Cxxxx ES, the less expensive). As soon as i will receive it, i will post a photo, then destroy it.

PS2 : PLEASE DON'T SEND ME PM OR EMAIL FOR BUYING 'FAKE' CHIP, I WILL NEVER SUPPORT THIS F*****G BUSINESS !!

[xsecret]

I can't see the need to collect fake chips especially built for collectors...

[gshv]

[xsecret]

I will receive it in some weeks.

BTW, there is lots of Intel white ceramic chips on eBay. I noticed more than 50 since the beginning of this month. Look at this :

http://search.ebay.com/_W0QQgotopageZ1QQsassZcollectachipQQsorecordsperpageZ50QQsosortpropertyZ1

And you can notice some 'new' and 'strange' marking appearing since some months. Like '4004 ES' or this C4004 "that does not have the Intel "i" on it" :

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=1247&item=5149637361&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW

I don't know exactly what to think about that.

[gshv]

[xsecret]

U want one for $3 ?

Just a joke

[Borris70]

we need working machines to check the authenticity of old chips.

1/2 year ago, a german guy offered an old working busicom calculator (with 4004 inside). after 3 days he said, that his son destroyed the calculator by accident. but he also told me, that he got many direct offers from all around the world.

if someone ownes such a machine, it would be possible to check the authenticity.

btw: here is a nice link to a guy, who build a 4004tic-tac-toe machine:
http://mywebpages.comcast.net/jsweinrich/

maybe someone can also build one.

[gshv]

[CPUShack]

Ways we can tell fakes.

Ceramic composition.

This has changed a bit since the 70's

Gold content of the lids.

perhaps even some data paths through the chip (DC testing).

[gmphillips3]

I don't buy it. There's simply too few chip collectors to make it worth while, especially ones who are willing to spend hundreds of dollars
on a vintage chip.

Actually, vintage chips are pretty much fake proof given that it costs
about a billion dollars to build a fab plant and most of the vintage chips are still functional and can be tested and tested without having to have a Busicom 141PF either.

I would say the biggest risk might be someone trying to add an 'ES' or 'CS' to a real chip. Even then, there are ways to detect that. The ink won't be the same and the fluorescence under a black light would almost surely be different in the ink for the added on 'ES'.

Why spend a billion to fake some old chips for a market of maybe a couple hundred collectors? Someone with that kind of expertise would
want to build their own mint and fake some US 1933 double eagle $20 gold pieces (One of these sold for something like 15 million last year), or
easier yet, fake some old stamps like a Britsh Guiana One Cent Black on Magenta that bring about 1 million ea.

[Guest]

Hi all,

Been lurking on the board for a while and just had to jump in on this topic. I worked in the printing industry for about 6 years during college which gives me some knowledge of printing techniques. I think the possibility of fake chips, esspecially on ebay, is significant for the higher priced and common "rare" chips. A regular stream of "rare" chips is always being offered.

Vintage chips will be some of the easiest to pass off because there was a lot of variation in appearance in the early chips. At least there is a lot of variation in the chips I am seeing offered on ebay. There are all kinds of relativley cheap, vintage, white ceramic, gold lid chips that look more or less like a 4004 (or a "rare" variation) to use as a base for a forgery. Real easy to polish the printing off. Real easy to re-plate the gold if nessessary. Real easy to chemically create the patina too. And of course real easy to re print on the chip. Yes, a regular outlet to sell items at more than a $100 is enough to attract the professional forger to any market. The same people that forge currency, watches, hand bags, artifacts, coins, artwork, jewellery etc already know what to do and who to call. Something as simple looking as a C4004 is a cakewalk for these people. Can fake items be detectected by the knowledgable? Yes, almost always. Are most collectors that knowlegable (i.e handled a number of known good examples)? Not many. Are most of the C4004 chips fake? Probably not - at least not yet. Just my 2 cents.

Metalmaker

[gmphillips3]

"The same people that forge currency, watches, hand bags, artifacts, coins, artwork, jewellery etc".

Those things are forged because there's a market of tens of thousands that will buy them.

A few years ago, C8008's were selling for $150+ on EBAY and then a seller named staceymama dumped about 50 over a few month period.
The last ones sold for 19.95.

Has anyone tried checking the resistance across the pins on different chips? That might be an easy way to distinguish a real chip from a
fake. I would imagine each chip would have a pretty unique resistance "fingerprint".

[Guest]

[xsecret]

The fake Cxxxx are not completely fake chips. As somebody said, they take a common gold w/ white ceramix from the '70, remove the top markings and rewritte some of them.

[gmphillips3]

Anyone can guarantee chip's authenticity or its functionality or your money back.

All that's saying is that if it does not work or you find out it's not authentic then they will refund your money.

If the auction said "tested and verified to be functional at time of sale" or something like that then that would be a different matter.

I rarely if ever sell anything on EBAY but if and when I do, I'll guarantee the chips functionality and authenticity or you can return the chip for a full refund. Will I put that 1103 RAM in a vintage mainframe and fire it up
just to make sure it really works first? Probably not. But if by chance YOU put it in a vintage mainframe and find it does not work, then I'll be
happy to refund your money:)