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ketchupcorp
Joined: 16 Mar 2023
Posts: 5
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 Posted: Thu Mar 16, 2023 4:45 am Post subject: SL8K4 vs SL7CH (which would be faster?) |
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I was wondering if anyone had any concrete benchmarks or something as a general reference for these two processors:
https://www.cpu-world.com/sspec/SL/SL8K4.html
https://www.cpu-world.com/sspec/SL/SL7CH.html
Humorously enough SL7CH (Gallatin) actually runs cooler than SL8K4 (Prescott 1M)! In theory the Gallatin with the shorter pipeline and more cache should be faster, but then you have the faster (larger) L2 cache on the Prescott 1M.
I do have a tiny little system that supports SL8K4, but perhaps it would be funnier to try and score a SL7CH. I was hoping a SL7QB would work in it, but it did not*.
*If anyone is great at modding Phoenix BIOSes let me know, as it would be nice to mod the BIOS to support SL7QB/SL7Q8. It kind of begs the question if SL7CH would even work but I imagine it would... |
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ketchupcorp
Joined: 16 Mar 2023
Posts: 5
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| Posted: Thu Mar 16, 2023 5:06 am Post subject: |
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Ah my mistake, looks like Phil already compared both:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LlUPhs1nM6Q
Looks like SL7CH is slightly faster overall but you could consider it neck and neck with SL8K4. That's technically quite underwhelming considering it has 53 million more transistors  |
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Calbris
Joined: 06 Feb 2019
Posts: 157
Location: Singapore
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| Posted: Thu Mar 16, 2023 7:06 am Post subject: Re: SL8K4 vs SL7CH (which would be faster?) |
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| ketchupcorp wrote: | | If anyone is great at modding Phoenix BIOSes let me know, as it would be nice to mod the BIOS to support SL7QB/SL7Q8. |
You need to identify a motherboard with the same chipset and a similar Phoenix BIOS that your motherboard has, ideally from the same manufacturer. Then, download its BIOS image for comparison. You will most likely need to extract the modules from its BIOS image to determine what your motherboard needs to support an EM64T-capable Prescott. This can be done with Phoenix BIOS Editor or phnxdeco, assuming that your BIOS image is already decompressed with phcomp.
Once you have identified the BIOS modules that your system needs, you'll have to graft bits from it to your system's BIOS. What part of it needs to be transferred over I do not know, this is something that has to be done by looking at the assembly code via Interactive Disassembler Free/Pro. Judge what is necessary and what isn't, then move it over to your system's BIOS image. If by some random chance that the BIOS module(s)'s structure is nearly identical with your system's, then I suppose drag-and-dropping would work. I doubt it would be that easy, though.
Now, flashing the modified BIOS is risky. If you're unlucky and it doesn't POST after the flash, you have to find out what key combination activates the Phoenix BIOS crisis recovery routine. This assumes that your system's BIOS has something in the 'Boot Block' module, as that indicates support for the crisis recovery routine. Without it, you can't recover from a non-functional BIOS without resorting to manually reprogramming the BIOS chip via an external programmer such as the CH341A.
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Last edited by Calbris on Wed May 15, 2024 11:15 am; edited 1 time in total |
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| Posted: Thu Mar 16, 2023 7:48 am Post subject: Re: SL8K4 vs SL7CH (which would be faster?) |
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| Calbris wrote: | | ketchupcorp wrote: | | If anyone is great at modding Phoenix BIOSes let me know, as it would be nice to mod the BIOS to support SL7QB/SL7Q8. |
You need to identify a motherboard with the same chipset and a similar Phoenix BIOS that your motherboard has, ideally from the same manufacturer. Then, download its BIOS image for comparison. You will most likely need to extract the modules from its BIOS image to determine what your motherboard needs to support an EM64T-capable Prescott. This can be done with Phoenix BIOS Editor or phnxdeco, assuming that your BIOS image is already decompressed with phcomp.
Once you have identified the BIOS modules that your system needs, you'll have to graft bits from it to your system's BIOS. What part of it needs to be transferred over I do not know, this is something that has to be done by looking at the assembly code via Interactive Disassembler Free/Pro. Judge what is necessary and what isn't, then move it over to your system's BIOS image. If by some random chance that the BIOS module(s)'s structure is nearly identical with your system's, then I suppose drag-and-dropping would work. I doubt it would be that easy, though.
Now, flashing the modified BIOS is risky. If you're unlucky and it doesn't POST after the flash, you have to find out what key combination activates the Phoenix BIOS crisis recovery routine. This assumes that your system's BIOS has something in the 'Boot Block' module, as that indicates support for the crisis recovery routine. Without it, you can't recover from a non-functional BIOS without resorting to manually reprogramming the BIOS chip via an external programmer such as the CH341A. |
Yeah they're both Phoenix BIOSes from the same manufacturer; chipsets may be different but I believe there's some other ones which have the same chipset that do run these.
Thanks for the info. I think the best option will be to solder in a PLCC socket and use a chip programmer, there's just going to be so much trial-and-error required, I imagine.
Phoenix Phlash16 is also pretty flaky in general. For this machine it refused to write the latest BIOS and so I had to use WinPhlash instead. On another machine it gave a false-positive crisis warning for a modded BIOS that was perfectly fine. |
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Calbris
Joined: 06 Feb 2019
Posts: 157
Location: Singapore
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| Posted: Thu Mar 16, 2023 8:16 am Post subject: Re: SL8K4 vs SL7CH (which would be faster?) |
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With or without EM64T support? Apologies for that, I forgot to mention that the motherboard you identified must be capable of booting into an x86-64 operating system of any kind. POSTing is one thing, but the capability of booting into an actual 64-bit operating system is what you really want.
By any chance, are you using a special phlash16 executable provided by your board's manufacturer or the latest phlash16 from Wim's BIOS website? I recommend using the same phlash16 provided by the manufacturer, normally the 'generic' phlash16 should work just fine but it isn't guaranteed to work on some boards in my experience. |
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ketchupcorp
Joined: 16 Mar 2023
Posts: 5
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| Posted: Thu Mar 16, 2023 10:00 am Post subject: Re: SL8K4 vs SL7CH (which would be faster?) |
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| Calbris wrote: | With or without EM64T support? Apologies for that, I forgot to mention that the motherboard you identified must be capable of booting into an x86-64 operating system of any kind. POSTing is one thing, but the capability of booting into an actual 64-bit operating system is what you really want.
By any chance, are you using a special phlash16 executable provided by your board's manufacturer or the latest phlash16 from Wim's BIOS website? I recommend using the same phlash16 provided by the manufacturer, normally the 'generic' phlash16 should work just fine but it isn't guaranteed to work on some boards in my experience. |
Yeah EM64T support will be needed (the goal is to try and get Windows 11 booted on it, since it does actually meet the minimum requirements with the exception that the processor doesn't like the mobo hah). This is the motherboard in question:
http://ps-2.kev009.com/pccbbs/thinkcentre_bios/2dj913a.iso <-- .USF feigned incompatibility when I used it
http://ps-2.kev009.com/pccbbs/thinkcentre_bios/2djt13a.exe
http://ps-2.kev009.com/pccbbs/thinkcentre_bios/2djy13usa.exe
I used the OEM BIOS files, I don't think it's possible to find the original Matsonic files (if Matsonic was even responsible for doing the final BIOS updates, which I don't think they were).
If you don't think it's going to be viable of hacking EM64T on that thing, I might just source one of the original 13M8300/23K4446 motherboards (which predate the MS-7024 btw), and perform a 'ThinkCentre' conversion since it contains the unsoldered connectors needed to plop right into a ThinkCentre chassis of the period. Weird, but true! |
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rjluna2
Joined: 27 Oct 2014
Posts: 1302
Location: Hiram, GA, USA
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| Posted: Thu Mar 16, 2023 10:21 am Post subject: |
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That's old. Neither of them support 64-bit processing here  |
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ketchupcorp
Joined: 16 Mar 2023
Posts: 5
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| Posted: Thu Mar 16, 2023 10:22 am Post subject: |
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| rjluna2 wrote: | | That's old. Neither of them support 64-bit processing here |
Considering the 64-bit processors were made for 13M8300/23K4446, they definitely support it  |
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Calbris
Joined: 06 Feb 2019
Posts: 157
Location: Singapore
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| Posted: Thu Mar 16, 2023 12:08 pm Post subject: Re: SL8K4 vs SL7CH (which would be faster?) |
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| ketchupcorp wrote: | | If you don't think it's going to be viable of hacking EM64T on that thing |
I believe it is time-consuming, but still viable. It's just not very convenient if I'm the one performing the modifications to the BIOS. I'll have to send the BIOS image back and forth which you will have to flash, and if it doesn't work, the same cycle will repeat. However, if you decide to do the modifications by yourself, it would be much simpler that way.
| ketchupcorp wrote: | | I might just source one of the original 13M8300/23K4446 motherboards |
A far better option than frankensteining a BIOS together, in my opinion. |
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ketchupcorp
Joined: 16 Mar 2023
Posts: 5
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| Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2023 7:12 am Post subject: Re: SL8K4 vs SL7CH (which would be faster?) |
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| Calbris wrote: | | ketchupcorp wrote: | | If you don't think it's going to be viable of hacking EM64T on that thing |
I believe it is time-consuming, but still viable. It's just not very convenient if I'm the one performing the modifications to the BIOS. I'll have to send the BIOS image back and forth which you will have to flash, and if it doesn't work, the same cycle will repeat. However, if you decide to do the modifications by yourself, it would be much simpler that way.
| ketchupcorp wrote: | | I might just source one of the original 13M8300/23K4446 motherboards |
A far better option than frankensteining a BIOS together, in my opinion. |
One thing occurred to me: I don't think Windows 11 will like i865P (most 64-bit operating systems will have never seen i865P operating in 64-bit mode), so even if we were to pull that off it'd be a dead end most likely. Probably the same would apply to E7210 as well. It would be absolutely hilarious, regardless.
So I think our best bet is to try a i915P-class 478 board and go from there.
Thanks for the help though |
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max1024
Joined: 15 Jan 2015
Posts: 636
Location: Belarus
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| Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2023 10:34 am Post subject: |
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| ketchupcorp you can read this article, its my experiment with SL7QB & Co) |
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